r/worldnews
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u/cryptocandyclub
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Jan 25 '23
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Germany confirms 14 Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine Russia/Ukraine
https://news.sky.com/story/germany-to-send-14-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine-127948421.4k
u/cryptocandyclub Jan 25 '23
German armour going up against the Russians again within a century, who would have thought!?
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u/Zhukov-74 Jan 25 '23
“German tanks will soon be arriving in Ukraine to fight Russia”
I don’t think anyone expected to read that headline ever again.
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u/FarewellSovereignty Jan 25 '23
Headlines these days would be super confusing for someone (admittedly very old) just waking from a 80 year coma:
Poland to ask for Berlin’s permission to deliver German-made tanks to Ukraine
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u/Ooops2278 Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 25 '23
Headlines these days would be super confusing for someone (admittedly very old) just waking from a 80 year coma:
Or tell him that the Dutch army is well intergrated into German divisions nowadays...
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u/Callewag Jan 25 '23
If my Belgian grandad who fought in wwII was still around I think this would stress him out :D
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u/Just_wanna_talk Jan 25 '23
My 90 year old Dutch grandpa is a little anxious these days
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u/oxygene2022 Jan 25 '23
Depends on where the comatose patient comes from. A German would ask "Anschluss West?"
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u/tony87879 Jan 25 '23
Very ironic that German and Russian tanks will be battling once again. Humanity should have learned it’s lesson. It gives me hope that 80 years later a country that was completely brainwashed and destroyed is now fighting for justice in the world.
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u/MK5 Jan 25 '23
It's even more ironic that, the way Putin's War is going, they may well be the same tanks on the Russian side. I wouldn't be too surprised if they try to reactivate T-34/85 museum tanks out of sheer desperation.
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u/SkoorvielMD Jan 25 '23
While that would be funny, Russia has a shit ton of Cold War tanks in storage. They might not be in operational shape right now, but deff a 1960's tank from storage is easier to fix than a 1940's tank from a museum.
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u/MK5 Jan 25 '23
More like half a shit ton. The rest (and most of the spare parts) were sold on the black market by supply personnel for vodka money.
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u/ClownfishSoup Jan 25 '23
Or how about "Russia business man owns 90 million dollar boat"...
Heck, even today that's shocking.
But 90 mill in 1940 is very close to $ 2 billion today. Imagine a $2B boat owned by one guy.
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u/qtx Jan 25 '23
But 90 mill in 1940 is very close to $ 2 billion today. Imagine a $2B boat owned by one guy.
You're doing it the wrong way. You need to look what 90m in current money was worth a hundred years ago. Not what 90m in 1940 is worth today, that makes no sense.
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u/TrivialBudgie Jan 25 '23
thank you, i knew this was confusing me for some reason, glad i’m not going mad
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u/Frangiblepani Jan 25 '23
And they really didn't expect to be cheering on the German tanks.
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u/Traveller_Guide Jan 25 '23
Plenty actually would have. Near the end of WW2, the western allies were prepared to recruit German units on the fly if the Soviets proved to be a threat that couldn't be worked with. Patton in particular had a very high opinion of the Germans, to the point of calling the Nuremburg Trials a "jewish revenge plot".
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u/BTechUnited Jan 25 '23
Yet further proof that the best thing patton did was die in that car crash tbh. Dude was not a particularly competent general, not that that was his job I suppose.
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u/mrmarsh25 Jan 25 '23
I wish McArthur would have been in that car too. They led the charge against their own troops during the bonus army protest for WW1 soldiers. Not to mention McArthur's anti communist tactics.
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u/hallese Jan 25 '23
Nah, McArthur lived long enough to go down as a disgrace, I'm good with that. Hugely important figure for American military history in the first half of the 20th century, but also kind of a douche. His role in HOI4 is very befitting his real life personality and accomplishments.
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u/SpecificAstronaut69 Jan 25 '23
Aussie here.
He was both a shitcunt and a dogcunt.
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u/hallese Jan 25 '23
I'm unfamiliar with these terms...
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u/Now_Wait-4-Last_Year Jan 25 '23
As another Australian, I'll translate.
He was not generally well thought of in many aspects of his personality and behaviour towards others.
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u/Traevia Jan 25 '23
I agree. I looked into the history of the Pacific and his role in the role. Anyone who holds him in high regard is an idiot. He is 100% the reason there are 2 Koreas today. North Korea was pushed back to within 50 miles of the border. If he stopped there, that was likely the end of the war.
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u/SpecificAstronaut69 Jan 26 '23
Here's someone you haven't heard of, but should have: Cyril Clowes.
Lieutenant-General Cyril Clowes, that is.
He was the Aussie commander in charge of one of the most important (if not THE most important) land battles of the Pacific Theatre: the Battle of Milne Bay. This was the battle that "broke the myth of invincibility" of the Japanese on land. It was the first victory over the Japanese on land. This was Midway in the mud.
Clowes' nickname was "Silent Cyril", because he was quiet, got the job done, and didn't big-note himself.
And you can see how that rubbed Macarthur the wrong way. During Milne Bay, Macarthur constantly hammered him for reports, while the bullets were flying, because Mac wanted something to feed the press - and take credit for. (Macarthur's infamous press censorship and control led to victories by Aussies, Kiwis, the Dutch, British, any non-American as "Allied Victories" to imply American involvement, but any American victories were reported as "American victories".)
Mac was pissed he was being denied the opportunity to grandstand for something he had little involvement in.
After the battle was won, Macarthur pulled strings and immediately got Clowes shifted to admin duties in Melbourne, and also sacked some of Clowes' friends. Macarthur stated Clowes had not shown sufficient "vigour".
Mac also had his lackeys bypass formal security procedures where possible, and they got insanely jealous of anyone who was privy to information they weren't. There was an intelligence room where one of his staff wasn't allowed into, but hung around in order to try to get intelligence fresh off the press and into Mac's hands personally.
One Aussie officer, IIRC, once walked out holding a report and when the toady tried to take it from him, the Aussie pulled out his lighter and burned it right in front of him just to show the lackey he couldn't have it.
There's a reason he's Trump's favourite general. Absolute image-over-substance.
He let the Japanese walk all over the Philipines because he was a) too chickenshit to leave his hotel and command until several hours after the bombing started, b) too hungover from the night before when he was partying with the President, or c) both a and b.
By the way, the President of the Philippines was paying him $300,000US - in 1940s money - to be their Generalissimo. Macarthur is the specific reason why US officers cannot be on the payroll of any other country - the law was made because of him.
US Politicians wanted to shit-can here any way they could, even before the war, but because Mac spent more time on publicity than, y'know, doing his job, there was immediate uproar from the public and press every time he was hauled in for stupidity.
Admiral Ernest J. King wanted to keel-haul him, and it's said that almost every strategic decision King made in the Pacific was to try to prevent Macarthur doing something incredibly stupid that would result in more Allied lives lost. Guadalcanal was a bloody battle for the Marines, but it kept Macarthur's stupid hands off it.
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u/SolomonG Jan 25 '23
On the other hand, if he had his way he might have prevented the cold war and kept east germany from being set back decades.
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u/YumTacoBell Jan 25 '23
Say what you want about his opinions, but he was absolutely a competent general
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u/TofeeDodger Jan 25 '23
Patton wasn't a competent general?
He didn't quite understand the psychological consequences war had on his troops but to say he wasn't competent is just flat wrong.
The car crash was also most likely a conspiracy due to his outspoken views on the USSR, which he turned out to be right about, see: cold War
Britain got involved in WW2 because Polish Germany violated Polish sovereignty, though it wasn't just Germany that invaded them it was the USSR too. Churchill, Patton etc knew the Soviets were as bad as the Germans but Roosevelt was a fool.
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u/SaintRainbow Jan 25 '23
When Nazi Germany invaded Ukraine, a lot of them were initially welcomed as Heroes, liberating Ukrainians from the famine and oppression brought on by Stalin over Ukraine. Of course, that sentiment changed relatively quick.
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u/Antilles1138 Jan 25 '23
"People of Ukraine, we have come to save you!"
"Hooray it's the Nazis!"
"FROM YOURSELVES!"
"Oh no it's the Nazis..."
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u/ClownfishSoup Jan 25 '23
Well the old saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" comes into play here.
if someone is bullying you, and another bully shows up to kick his ass, at first you are happy, but then the bigger bully turns towards you ...
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u/titanup001 Jan 25 '23
I think most American leaders were thrilled to watch Hitler and Stalin bleed each other dry.
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u/FM-101 Jan 25 '23
“German tanks will soon be arriving in Ukraine to fight Russia”
The 20s is a wild time to be alive.
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u/netz_pirat Jan 25 '23
It's even worse "Poland asks Germany to send tanks through Poland to fight russia in Ukraine."
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u/zveroshka Jan 25 '23
The twist of who the bad guys and good guys are is kind of wild too if you look at in historical context.
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u/LoneRonin Jan 25 '23
It's no different than how Sparta and Athens teamed up against the Persians in the Peloponnesian War, then about 80 years later Sparta teamed up with Persia to destroy Athens. Geopolitics and foreign policy are complicated and change.
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u/heftigfin Jan 25 '23
And now we are cheering for the Germans. This timeline is strange.
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u/kieplangdu Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 25 '23
And some American "patriots" fly Nazi flags in the US.
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u/nl2yoo Jan 25 '23
That's the sentiment that's making the Germans cringe and the reason they've been dragging their feet waiting for the US to put up the Abrams first.
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u/Hawkeye_x_Hawkeye
Jan 25 '23
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14 Leopard 2 Tanks
These fast and furious movies are out of control
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u/Madmandocv1 Jan 25 '23
2 Leopards, 2 furious 14?
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u/Tranecarid Jan 25 '23
No, 14 Leopards 2 Tanks.
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u/WingedGundark Jan 25 '23
2 Leopards, 1 tank.
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u/Huxley077 Jan 25 '23
I'm gonna regret watching this as much as 2 Girls 1 cup, aren't I
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u/WingedGundark Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 25 '23
100% yes. And you are still going to watch it, even when you know you shouldn't.
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u/Vagabond21 Jan 25 '23
Wait till you find out about the cross over where they go Pandora to help the Na’vi.
And yes, Michelle Rodriguez will come back to life somehow.
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u/ClownfishSoup Jan 25 '23
Will she be wearing a tank top and act all tough, despite being feminine?
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u/Sanhen Jan 25 '23
Germany said that partner countries that have stocks of the NATO-standard tank can now donate them to Kyiv.
So on top of Germany's shipment, other countries like Poland now officially have the greenlight to make shipments without German interference.
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u/maldobar4711 Jan 25 '23
Poland is first asking EU/Germoney if they pay for the polisch Leopards if they donate them..PIS at its best
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u/Was_going_2_say_that Jan 25 '23
PIS
I see that acronym mentioned a lot in the same sentence as Poland here. Can anyone tell me what it means?
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u/Danjiano Jan 25 '23
PIS
Googling the acronym showed me Prawo i Sprawiedliwość
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u/Was_going_2_say_that Jan 25 '23
Thanks. I also saw that when I googled and because of the context assumed that's what it was. I also saw a few vulgar things that it could be referring to, hence why I asked for clarification. I'd rather be dense than assume and be incorrect.
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u/Byamarro Jan 25 '23
People sometimes turn the name of the party into vulgar slogans in an act of political protest.
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u/notyourvader Jan 25 '23
The EU has a fund to pay for donations to Ukraine.
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u/Extansion01 Jan 25 '23
They got them for 100k a pop back then!
1,4 million overall, for Christ's sake. Somehow I think they will mark them around 5 million each or some ridiculous amount.
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u/Rhoderick Jan 25 '23
Yes, however mostly the EPF funds are used to directly purchase + donate stuff, not to reimburse member states for their donations. Additionally, EPF fund usage needs unanimity, and there's absolutely no way Hungary will vote for this - IIRC they still don't allow donations to traverse their territory.
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u/HDC3 Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 25 '23
Yesterday, Moscow warned Berlin that sending tanks "does not bode well for future relations" -
Do you know what doesn't bode well for future relations? Invading a neighbour and repeatedly threatening nuclear war if they rubber don't capitulate.
and told the US that should it authorise such a move it would be a "blatant provocation".
Can Russia just shut the fuck up now?
EDIT: Corrected autocucumber of "don't" to "rubber" in a way that leaves the humor in the comment.
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u/Kitahara_Kazusa1 Jan 25 '23
That Russian stuff is mostly for internal propaganda purposes. They aren't trying to persuade people in the west, they are trying to keep their own citizens mad at the west and supporting the war.
Russia does have other propaganda aimed at persuading the west to stop aiding Ukraine, but that mostly consists of portraying Zelensky and Ukraine in general as corrupt Nazis
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u/trail-g62Bim Jan 25 '23
That Russian stuff is mostly for internal propaganda purposes.
"All politics are local." It's why dictators rail against the US and then send their kids to the US for college and themselves for medical treatment.
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u/Doxbox49 Jan 25 '23
Well Ukraine was/is still fairly corrupt but have made great progress in the last 8 years to rectify it. Still have a ways to go but I think this war has helped oust a few pro kremlin fuckers in their ranks.
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u/Traevia Jan 25 '23
That Russian stuff is mostly for internal propaganda purposes. They aren't trying to persuade people in the west, they are trying to keep their own citizens mad at the west and supporting the war.
Some of it is just horrid. For instance, I saw one propagandist saying that the US doesn't have the industrial capability to produce more 155mm shells than they already do. The US production of Ventilators with as few people that were involved should make this a joke within seconds.
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u/Kitahara_Kazusa1 Jan 25 '23
I mean, that is partially correct, the American Military Industrial Complex was not prepared to support a drawn out artillery war in Ukraine. War planning assumed that ground based artillery would be used in support of armored offensives and that air support would be able to fulfill many of the missions that artillery is being tasked with in Ukraine.
This has lead to a situation where American production cannot keep up with consumption and stockpiles aren't infinite. However, America isn't the only country supporting Ukraine, so with help from Europe, South Korea, and other nations Ukraine is doing decently in terms of artillery ammunition.
America is also ramping up production, but this will take time
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u/MrNationwide Jan 25 '23
Or attempting to cut off their heat during winter. Kind of a dick move, if you ask me.
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u/MrHazard1 Jan 25 '23
would be a "blatant provocation".
Classic "you wouldn't like me when i'm angry. Hold me back, bro!"
Big macho words from someone with a small dick
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u/autotldr BOT Jan 25 '23
This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 81%. (I'm a bot)
Germany will send 14 Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine and has authorised partner countries to also send them - despite threats from Russia.
Although Ukraine has stocks of Soviet-made tanks, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says his forces need more, faster and deadlier weapons - in particular Western tanks - to push the Russians back.
The German decision comes after the UK announced it would provide 14 Challenger 2 tanks, which was widely seen as an attempt to persuade other allies to send Leopards, of which there are much higher stocks across Europe.
Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tank#1 send#2 Ukraine#3 Russia#4 weapons#5
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u/dnext Jan 25 '23
Spring is going to be a very interesting time in Ukraine. We'll see what NATO main battle tanks, NATO AFVs, and 60,000 NATO trained Ukrainians can do against 500,000 new Russian recruits.
On top of that it's expected the majority of the Russian equipment captured by Ukraine will be refitted and refurbished and ready for action. That figure could be up to half of Ukraine's armored vehicle supply.
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u/progrethth Jan 25 '23
Also we will see Swedish IFVs and artillery used in a war. Not a common sight.
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u/naslam74 Jan 25 '23
Saw a video of how fast those things can shoot 3 shells and be gone before they reach their target. So impressive.
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u/very_online Jan 25 '23
500,000 under-equipped, poorly trained conscripts against a modern combined arms force that is competently trained, and extremely well equipped that operates under a doctrine that isn't "Throw a human wall at the problem?"
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u/dnext Jan 25 '23
I'd expect it to work out that way too, but massed infantry is good for holding space, the Russians do have reasonable artillery support, and quantity has a quality all it's own. I very much hope Ukraine expels them this year, but this could drag on for many years.
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u/gobblox38 Jan 25 '23
There are two ways this will drag on.
- Ukraine pushes Russia out
- Russia somehow "wins" and has to occupy captured territory
2 will drag on much longer than 1 and Russia will still lose because occupation is the hard part. Partisans will constantly nip at the Russian military and bleed them dry.
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u/very_online Jan 25 '23
It is, of course going to drag on for a long time. But the fact of the matter is that in modern warfare, the human wall and the mass of tanks doesn't work anymore. Force multipliers are too effective. The age in which Russia's WWII era "throw everything we have at them" is long over.
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u/Fun-Syrup1574 Jan 25 '23
Honestly I hope more than anything that it's not interesting and that seeing these tanks incoming, Someone arrests Putin and this whole war moves to tribunals and is done with. Too many people dying for soil.
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u/tsukaimeLoL Jan 25 '23
Someone arrests Putin
Hard to do if he never leaves his bunker
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u/scookc00 Jan 25 '23
I kinda liked the ending the last time a madman invading his European neighbors locked himself in his bunker. Sorta worked itself out
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u/Taaargus Jan 25 '23
Arrests Putin lol? Who exactly would be doing the arresting here.
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u/tx_queer Jan 25 '23
That's how military coups happen all the time.
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u/Taaargus Jan 25 '23
Sure but in the case of Russia a lot of these guys are in just as deep as Putin. If there was momentum for that sort of thing it would’ve happened. No one overthrew Hitler even when the Russians were clearly taking over.
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u/tx_queer Jan 25 '23
Not for a lack of trying
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts_on_Adolf_Hitler
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u/zveroshka Jan 25 '23
Just want to dispel, once again, any notion that Putin will resign, be killed, or arrested. The one thing Putin has done well is to solidify his grip on Russia. Everyone and anyone able or capable of forming resistance or opposition to his rule is either in prison, exiled, or dead.
Everyone else that's left is under Putin's thumb. And at least the speculation is the he has them all individually in a vice grip. They are all one order by Putin from being arrest and/or imprisoned/killed. Meaning the chances of them ever forming a coalition to challenge Putin is zero.
Then you also have his state police. They squash any semblance of public disorder. So a popular revolution is also not happening because it will never be given a chance to organize.
This war, sadly, will continue for some time.
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u/MrFantasticallyNerdy Jan 25 '23
Too many innocent people are dying, and not enough complicit ones are.
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u/Ninety8Balloons Jan 25 '23
M1s won't be on the front lines until summer, at least. Possibly same with Challengers. Leopards might be out there in small numbers by spring though.
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u/Kitahara_Kazusa1 Jan 25 '23
At minimum they'll have to wait for the end of mud season, which effectively means summer or maybe late Spring. You can't launch armored offensives through mud, it just doesn't work well (see all the Russian tanks getting trapped in the mud last March)
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u/soonnow Jan 25 '23
Leopards might be out there in small numbers by spring though.
Three months for the German ones
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u/VADAKURT_GRIM Jan 25 '23
As Russian I can say that there is no second wave of mobilization at the moment.
First wave was around 300,000 by official statement, and, seems there is a serious cause why Putin afraid to start a new wave.
That is good news for me personally, because I am relatively safe from prison aand good news or whole Humanity, because Russia is evil now and evil is weak.
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u/Albstein Jan 25 '23
Death. Sensless death.
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u/dnext Jan 25 '23
From the Ukrainian POV it's very sensible death. They've already suffered one holocaust at the hands of the Russians in the last 100 years, the Holodomor. They should do everything possible to avoid another.
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u/Topgunjr13 Jan 25 '23
Russia crying of escalation when they invaded a country they said they wouldn’t and targeted civilians…
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u/Sirgolfs Jan 25 '23
Gonna be a couple crowded tanks. Can leopards even drive tanks?
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u/UniquesNotUseful Jan 25 '23
You going to tell the leopards they are not allowed to drive the tank?
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u/ChickpeaPredator Jan 25 '23
Coming soon: Russia moans that this isn't fair and threatens nuclear war (again). Everyone continues to ignore them.
Russia's best hope for eventual victory now is to dig in, attempt to hold the territory they've stolen whilst minimizing their losses, and attempt to wait it out whilst doing their best to destabilize their western opponents from within and shift geopolitical opinion. Watch out for increased Russian funding of opposition political parties and talking points!
Meanwhile, Ukraine needs to punch through the occupied regions' defenses, which is why they now need tanks.
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u/Madmandocv1
Jan 25 '23
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Netherlands is sending battle tanks. The Netherlands. When the Netherlands has decided it’s sick of your shit and sending the tanks, you really aren’t a superpower anymore.
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u/RobinKennedy23 Jan 25 '23
No surprise because many Dutch people were killed when Russian backed rebels and even actual Russian troops shot down MH17 back in 2014. 298 people died on that plane. 193 were Dutch citizens.
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u/progrethth Jan 25 '23
Yeah, and the commander of the people who shot down the plane was Girikin. You can see his name popup during this war from time to time as one of the Russian pro-war nationalist voices who openly criticizes the Russian army.
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u/uniquechill Jan 25 '23
who openly criticizes the Russian army
To be clear, he criticizes the Russian army for being incompetent, not for invading Ukraine.
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u/progrethth Jan 25 '23
Should probably have added that but thought the "pro-war nationalist" part was enough to make that obvious. :)
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u/Cheeky_Dot Jan 25 '23
How are we doing that? We don't own any tanks as far as i know. And the couple we use are leased from Germany?
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u/progrethth Jan 25 '23
By buying the ones you lease and then sending them to Ukraine.
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u/Katana1369 Jan 25 '23
"It destroys the remnants of mutual trust, causes irreparable damage to the already deplorable state of Russian-German relations, casts doubt on the possibility of their normalisation in the foreseeable future," it added.
Russia did that the minute they invaded Ukraine
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u/Sr_DingDong Jan 25 '23
...Is that a lot? It doesn't sound like a lot....
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u/Rhoderick Jan 25 '23
It's kind of a lot, and kind of not. Germany itself have somewhere between 200 and 300 of various Leo 2 models, prior to this donation. At the same time, many NATO states that do have some have way less. Modern MBTs are not to be underestimated, at least, and this will likely be followed by similar donations by otehr Leo-using NATO states, as well as potential follow-up donations from Germany.
Arguably, the main task right now is to set up the logistics chains necessary, and to prepare and train the crews.
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u/MrFantasticallyNerdy Jan 25 '23
Arguably, the main task right now is to set up the logistics chains necessary, and to prepare and train the crews.
Yup. As Russia has clearly shown us, one can lose wars via poor logistical support. Ukraine is obviously fighting on its own land, but the foreign armaments must come with the supplies/spares needed for continued operations, and the proficient manpower to best leverage the tools of destruction.
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u/Dt2_0 Jan 25 '23
Also the US is going to be providing Abrams as well now it seems, so they will have plenty of modernish MBTs to roll with. Or track with?
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u/Rhoderick Jan 25 '23
True, though this will worsen the supply-chain issues somewhat. (Though still nothing compared to what they've been dealing with so far - few things are as hard to effectively support as the hodgepodge of equipment they've got so far, anyway.)
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u/zveroshka Jan 25 '23
True, though this will worsen the supply-chain issues somewhat.
Abrams are more high maintenance than some other modern MBTs but I think people need some perspective. The reason maintenance and supply chain stuff was such an issue in places like Iraq was because the US had hundreds of Abrams and they were pushing hundreds of miles some days over wide and open desert terrain. It was hard to keep up and keep them fueled and serviced.
We are sending 30 Abrams to Ukraine so far. It's not THAT hard to supply and maintain 30 Abrams in combat where the front lines don't move that much.
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u/Rhoderick Jan 25 '23
Yeah, no, but having two rather distinct types of tanks to supply will inherently make the chain more complex than if it was just Leopards or just Abrams. Obviously the Abram isn't as complex as some US sources would have liked to portray it, though I would say it's probably more complex to supply than a single model of Leopard 2.
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u/zveroshka Jan 25 '23
I think the US mainly sent the Abrams to satisfy Germany/Scholz. They might be a bit of a headache but they should be worth the effort.
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u/Rhoderick Jan 25 '23
30 extra tanks are 30 extra tanks. Plus it ties the US to the whole thing, which means they will find it harder to stop helping, as they recently seem to be considering. Took a bit longer than optional, but it was probably a good call.
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u/DrSeuss19 Jan 25 '23
It’s not a lot but Germany also doesn’t have thousands to lend from so it is a lot relative to the amount they have available
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u/Oberon_Swanson Jan 25 '23
well it's not a war-changing amount. but it is a battle-changing amount. if you have only seen old tank battles you might not guess how insane the range of their guns can be. they'll be hitting stuff from several kilometers away.
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u/Traevia Jan 25 '23
It isn't if you think in terms of WW2. However, these are much more advanced tanks. For instance, the US is sending Bradleys. A US soldier mentioned that using the optics on it in the 90s, he could tell which enemy were sick based on the temperature difference of their noses.
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u/Ryan0889 Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 25 '23
I just find the Russian government as the most moronic group of people I've ever had the pleasure of reading and listening to. They say this could lead to a global catastrophe bc they will be used to hurt Russian soldiers.. Ummm well GTFO of someone else's yard and blowing shit up and nobody will get hurt. Ukraine doesn't want to cross the border into Russia and cause complete mayhem to their citizens and shit like the russians are doing to them. They are just defending their country. Honestly, the dumbest fucks I've ever heard, that are supposed to be "professional".
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u/HelpfulYoghurt Jan 25 '23
Single Leopard 2 worth probably like 100 family houses in Ukraine.
Something like F-35 is probably like 1000 family houses in Ukraine.
Crazy how expensive those things are, anyway, they are put to a good use, use they were designed for.
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u/Extansion01 Jan 25 '23
Honestly, just because they build them on such small scale and only the new variants.
Old 2A4 were sold for 100k-500k used around the 2000s.
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u/Armadylspark Jan 25 '23
Old 2A4 were sold for 100k-500k used around the 2000s.
It was a fire sale, mind you, not their true worth. Germany was practically giving the things away.
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u/progrethth Jan 25 '23
Yeah, but as I understand these 14 tanks will be 2A6s. Seems like Ukraine will get a mix of 2A4s, 2A5s and 2A6s. And if Sweden sends theirs, which is not decided but under consideration, they will also get customized 2A5s.
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u/MSTRMN_ Jan 25 '23
If you look at it this way, one F-35 can protect way more than 1000 houses, and one Leopard 2 can prevent more than 100 houses from getting destroyed
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u/NinjaElectricMeteor Jan 25 '23
Germany actually confirmed two full battalions of tanks (which would be 88), the first shipment consisting of 14 tanks:
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u/TimaeGer Jan 25 '23
I think they want to provide 2 battlions with tanks from all partner countries, not from Germany alone
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u/FreeTheLeopards Jan 25 '23
Wrong, this means 2 Battalians in total from all countries, 14 of which from Germany
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u/ischmal Jan 25 '23
I could be wrong, but I don't think it says Germany is actually providing all of them -- rather, they're giving 14 and the rest are being sent by other nations.
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u/Ascomae Jan 25 '23
2 battalions?
Germany has 6 battalions in total. So this donations mean provide 1/3 of the strength of germany, by all allies combined.
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u/Avolto Jan 25 '23
To start with most likely. Now that the floodgates are open the taboo has been broken. Poland will probably send half their inventory.
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u/anonskinz Jan 25 '23
What did Russia expect to happen? They may have the numbers but Ukraine has the combined forces of the rest of the world military equipment as their disposal.
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u/Brilliant-Rooster762 Jan 25 '23
Guess we're done here, might as well skip to the Russian Civil War 2.0
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u/airwalkerdnbmusic Jan 25 '23
The way I see this going is a brutal war of attrition breaking down into rapid advance and retreat fighting, with both sides making gains and suffering losses as the Leopard 2s and Abrams make short work of ousting dug in Russian positions but because Russia has a lot of materiel and troops to throw at the problem, when Ukraine makes a gain the Russians push in behind and threaten to cut them off.
The tactics, particularly in how an envelope into enemy territory can be expanded and protected, will decide how much of their own territory they can take back and hold. It's no good the Ukrainians blasting a 30 mile long thunder run only to have to haul ass backwards because the Russians are threatening to encircle them.
The thunder runs need to be supported by the entire army, holding back counter attacking forces and unfortunately, without air superiority this is going to be a very difficult task indeed.
Without being able to erase Russian artillery platforms from the battlefield, even the new Leopard and Abrams tanks will take losses that Ukraine can ill afford. I very much doubt the Russians will want to engage in open tank warfare against such a sophisticated and modern weapons platform, so I think they will keep their tanks in reserve and make moves after the Ukrainians have decided to attack.
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u/bachman-off Jan 25 '23
So, German tanks will go to Ukraine against Russians. Again.
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u/Frogmarsh Jan 25 '23
This makes 69 main battle tanks (14 Leopard 2s, 24 Challengers, and 31 M1s), right?
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u/Arcal Jan 26 '23
This is a tank nerds dream. We don't know which is the best MBT, but we know it's one of those 3. Same conflict, an adversary they were all specifically designed against... Have at it boys.
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u/BlackTearDrop Jan 25 '23
That's great they sent the tanks, but why did they have to send 14 leopards as well?
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u/Mirathecat22 Jan 25 '23 •
“So we get 2 tanks, but we also get 14 leopards to send into the trenches? Sign me up”