r/formula1 Dec 08 '22

[iRacing] iRacers can now hop behind the virtual steering wheel of the Mercedes-AMG F1 W13 E Performance! Misc

https://twitter.com/iRacing/status/1600882782343163907?t=mVOMUdJmjYtJ_BJRnfCESA&s=19
1.5k Upvotes

199

u/mortalcrawad66 Dec 08 '22

At the start of the season, or the end of the season

149

u/Vaexa Jean-Pierre Jabouille Dec 08 '22

Bahrain test spec. Old floor, missing the extra downwash winglet on the monococque. old pre-Miami front wing.

57

u/gramathy McLaren Dec 08 '22

That's just the model, not necessarily the driving characteristics. They understandably don't model CFD across the ingame wireframe to determine downforce etc, they just take sampled or simulatedresults at different speeds and car conditions and match that to a response curve to simulate forces ingame.

22

u/Vaexa Jean-Pierre Jabouille Dec 08 '22

Well, yeah, I figure it's supremely hard to model the actual driving characteristics of an F1 car. The bodywork, however, matches the Bahrain test spec.

5

u/gramathy McLaren Dec 09 '22

if there's one opportunity that got missed, it's the myteam/custom cars in the f1 game not having both of the front wing models from the FIA demo cars.

7

u/apiccini Dec 08 '22

Yes, as with any other car's aero simulation. It's all just a lot of Cd maps for all speeds, angles, pitch, and so on

3

u/random92- Formula 1 Dec 09 '22

Cdeez nuts on the map

2

u/apiccini Dec 10 '22

Lmao got em

36

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

It's in the game now.

It was part of the patch on Tuesday.

Regularly scheduled official races will start on Monday 7PM EST when Week 1 starts for 2023S1

48

u/mortalcrawad66 Dec 08 '22

I was making joking. Is the car that's in the game early season W13, or the later W13

Because one was good, and one wasn't

15

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

Ah gotcha I misunderstood.

I'm honestly not sure. Someone with an eye for detail could probably figure it out based on bodywork changes throughout the year

0

u/SimRacer101 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 09 '22

Ah making joking.

4

u/Candymanshook Formula 1 Dec 08 '22

Does it replace the W12?

9

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

Pretty much yeah.

I mean the W12 will still exist but it won't be used in officials anymore.

5

u/Candymanshook Formula 1 Dec 08 '22

Makes sense though. Can’t have them racing side by side anyways. Kinda wish it wasn’t a new purchase as we really only got 1 year out of the W12 but oh well, Atleast the Merc F1 cars are well developed.

1

u/StealthMan375 I was here when Haas took pole Dec 09 '22

I don't own iRacing and am curious - does this mean the W12 will only be there for people that already bought it, or could I buy it in the game for myself anytime I want?

1

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 09 '22

New players can still buy the W12, but there won't really be any races to drive it in.

4

u/apply_induction Dec 09 '22

iRacing can be a little confusing for newbies, so for GP:

- There are official races which use matchmaking. These will have the W13 and not the W12. These are the races that people mostly talk about when they talk about iRacing because it's the key feature of the game. The F1 races in iRacing are hard to join - there's the GP series, which requires the highest regular license class (A, that means you usually run wide once every 76 corners, or crash once every 280 corners - most drivers are around half that) and runs every 4 hours, usually with only about 10 drivers, and there's the GP Tour series which requires a C license, but only runs in F1 weekends, only Thursday->Sunday and only 4 times per day. Put simply, in the GP tour you're likely getting punted on Lap 1 and there are no do-overs, but if you can get through lap 1 you get a nice fun F1 race.

- There are local AI races, test sessions, whatever. These can use both the W12 and W13 and indeed any car.

- People set up leagues which also do competitive racing, although possibly with somewhat different rules than the official races (e.g. may have more or less fast repairs).

1

u/Kazakh8i Formula 1 Dec 09 '22

Im new to iRacing, will everyone have the same silver livery or can you paint a new one?

1

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 09 '22

Vast majority of cars on iRacing cna have custom paints.

Something with sponsors and contracts and Mercedes means that they heavily restrict painting. They have ~20 presets to pick from but they're all just color variations of the Mercedes scheme.

814

u/sidhantsv Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 08 '22

Gonna be real bouncy

591

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22

Yep. Apparently if you set the ride height low enough in the settings, it will porpoise.

Edit: Video

78

u/LemonTM Alfa Romeo Dec 08 '22

Going to be fun in VR.

44

u/AxelAxelsson23 Michael Schumacher Dec 08 '22

Just put that trash bin right beside you first

Edit: and a bag in right before that

6

u/dr_pupsgesicht Jim Clark Dec 09 '22

Just have the bucket taped to your head at that point

121

u/daniec1610 Sergio Pérez Dec 08 '22

Lmao that’s awesome

14

u/JebbAnonymous Dec 08 '22

Imagine riding that car in a full motion sim rig.

11

u/TonB-Dependant Lotus Dec 08 '22

Imagine driving the car

47

u/Rosieu Spyder Dec 08 '22

Now that's realism

7

u/AngryUncleTony Mario Andretti Dec 08 '22

I love that he took it to Daytona to try it out.

5

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Dec 09 '22

Easiest way to get up to porpoising speed quickly and stay there. Important for tests you’ll need to repeat. Better than running the first half of the lap at COTA however many times when you only care about the back straight

1

u/SolomonG #WeRaceAsOne Dec 09 '22

Active reset for the win!

1

u/Hinyaldee JB & Rubinho Dec 09 '22

Isn't it just the bumps of the road ?

4

u/burns_after_reading Dec 08 '22

Yea, I'm gonna pass.

1

u/quan-586 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 09 '22

Imagine driving it with a motion sim

166

u/pigoath McLaren Dec 08 '22

"puts on conspiracy theory hat"

What if Mercedes is using the data of the gamers to find improvements for the W14??? 👀

76

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22

Not the craziest idea in the world, although I think the internal Mercedes sim will be much more valuable. (Edit: a million times more valuable)

I believe NASCAR developed the layout for the Chicago street circuit by working with iRacing, and I don't think that's the only example of something like that happening.

Edit: to clarify, I don't think Mercedes is going to be learning anything from iRacing. My point was just that some things on iRacing have previously aided development for real racing.

23

u/Tonys_New_AI Red Bull Dec 08 '22

Same with the LA Coliseum, Bristol Dirt and I believe new Atlanta.

12

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

I believe there was some collaboration on the new chicane for Daytona as well

4

u/thecolbster94 Penske Dec 08 '22

The redesigned Bus Stop or the one next to pit entry that I hate for aesthetic reasons?

5

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 09 '22

The one next to pitr entry.

I didn't know the bus stop had been redesigned tbh

1

u/thecolbster94 Penske Dec 09 '22

It has chonky sausages now

1

u/StarGamer857yt Dec 09 '22

Not anymore (atlesst in iRacing)

4

u/MrTrt Fernando Alonso Dec 09 '22

They put the sausages in real life and in iRacing and I think we simracers complained so much that they removed them both in sim and in real life.

1

u/SolomonG #WeRaceAsOne Dec 09 '22

Those were removed before the last 24.

-4

u/TheYear3022 Formula 1 Dec 08 '22

Not the craziest idea in the world, although I think the internal Mercedes sim will be much more valuable.

No, it is the craziest idea.

iRacing is need for speed when compared with an internal F1 sim which is made by a team of highly specialized people all making six figures.

physics in any consumer sim racing game are usually made by one or two people who are taking a guess. It's fun, but it provides no real data.

51

u/rydude88 Max Verstappen Dec 08 '22

physics in any consumer sim racing game are usually made by one or two people who are taking a guess

I agree with the point your making but youre taking it too far in the other direction. You are right that it wont provide useful data compared to their internal sim but sim racing has come way past 1 one or two people guessing. Thats doing a disservice to the developers

-16

u/TheYear3022 Formula 1 Dec 08 '22

I am talking about the physics specifically, not the overall development.

21

u/orodruinx Sebastian Vettel Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22

what do you think all the dev time goes into then? graphics & ui are pretty barebones, car models are often directly from manufacturers, tracks are from LIDAR scans... what does that leave? netcode & physics

Edit: Obviously I'm not saying iRacing is on the same level as the team's internal sim, but as the person above you said, you're not giving them enough credit.

7

u/AlexBucks93 Kevin Magnussen Dec 08 '22

It still takes more than 2 people in games like iRacing or Assetto

3

u/rydude88 Max Verstappen Dec 09 '22

I know. You are still totally wrong

-3

u/TheYear3022 Formula 1 Dec 09 '22

Are you in the industry?

7

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

You're right, I think I failed to be clear in what I was trying to say.

My point was that iRacing has been used to help development for real racing before.

I do think it is useless for Mercedes though.

5

u/hondaexige Formula 1 Dec 08 '22

Not sure about the W13 but from memory Anthony Davidson worked with iRacing to develop their W12 until it matched Mercedes own simulator/real car.

4

u/GaryGiesel F1 Vehicle Dynamicist ✅ Dec 09 '22

Lol I wish we made 6 figures.

I would be fairly confident in saying that iRacing probably has more people working on its modelling than any F1 team. They’re also probably paid more because they’re in the US where engineers are properly paid…

(This comment coming to you from the control room of an F1 simulator)

0

u/logan14325 Dec 08 '22

As someone who has almost no knowledge in NASCAR, aren't the circuits all ovals?

How would iRacing help in making an oval track?

8

u/geoffisracing Lance Stroll Dec 09 '22

I started iRacing only wanting to do open wheels and F1 style racing. I ended up punting around in the NASCAR side and had an absolute blasts. The tracks are not all ovals, they look like it from above or from the stands but they are very different in terms of the banking and optimum lines.

One thing that I didn't appreciate was how big a difference setup makes. The line you take through the turns changes drastically through a tire stint. Guys will set up their car to run wider and be easier on tires. That can give you a second a lap advantage later in the stint, but vulnerable to a safety car.

The other thing that's crazy is how close they run to each other, door to door, for a whole race, in a car that feels like it has no downforce or lateral grip (compared to a F1 style).

It still isn't a blast to watch on TV the way F1 is, but its a lot of fun to actually do it.

4

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

As someone who has almost no knowledge in NASCAR, aren't the circuits all ovals?

Most but not all. NASCAR runs 36 races a year. 6 of them are non-ovals.

The Chicago street circuit and Daytona Road Course are both non-ovals.

That said, I think iRacing is able to build the track in game before it's built in real life. Then you can test it before you build it. According to the person that commented to me, they did that for Bristol Dirt and new Atlanta.

I'm not really sure why you think that would work for road course but not ovals.

I'm thinking what you're missing here is that Ovals can all be very different. If you're unfamiliar with NASCAR, the sheer variety in ovals is probably quite surprising.

5

u/Ainolukos AlphaTauri Dec 08 '22

I feel like there would be a breach in the rules somewhere for using a 3rd party to collect data

4

u/orodruinx Sebastian Vettel Dec 08 '22

absolutely there must be. I mean obviously iRacing sim is not on the same level as their internal models, but it could be close enough that the 10s of millions of hours people will race their car could yield some insight into actual development or at least direct their attention one way or another.

3

u/Ainolukos AlphaTauri Dec 08 '22

Oh for sure. If the game is detailed enough to simulate porpoising there's definitely valuable data in there that could be useful.

How hard would it be to catch them doing it though? Is that data accessible to the public? (The public smart enough to mine the data of course)

3

u/GaryGiesel F1 Vehicle Dynamicist ✅ Dec 09 '22

Easy to make a vehicle model bounce. Doesn’t mean you can do any engineering work with it

3

u/GaryGiesel F1 Vehicle Dynamicist ✅ Dec 09 '22

No; when it comes to simulator testing, it’s all about quantity over quality. A million shit laps are worse than one decent one and Merc have a pretty decent simulator in-house

Also, there’s no way that the model parameters in iRacing are based on anything too real because that’s much too sensitive information to give to competitors ;)

1

u/orodruinx Sebastian Vettel Dec 09 '22

I think you reversed that quality over quantity thing, but yeah generally I'd say you're right. Having said that, the iRacing sim model is good enough to recreate the porpoising - that wasn't added in as a fun easter egg, that's their physics and aero simulation of the game engine and the car playing out in a similar way to real life.

Think of it as an analogy to open beta testing of a video game - the devs have all the source code and internal testing they could want and know exactly what they think the issues might be and where to look to improve the experience, but having thousands of players putting tens or hundreds of thousands of hours of playtime into it is going to uncover things the devs would never have had time to stumble across themselves, or have thought to purposely investigate.

3

u/GaryGiesel F1 Vehicle Dynamicist ✅ Dec 09 '22

Yeah that’s a typo in the earlier message; guess my inner Stalin came out 😂

I strongly disagree with what you’re saying about porpoising. Even in professional sims it’s not something that appears naturally unless you’re specifically modelling it. And just because they’ve got the phenomenon to happen in their game doesn’t mean that it’s happening because of the same causes as on the real car.

I’m extremely familiar with how F1 simulator testing works (it’s literally my job) - there’s absolutely nothing to learn from random people doing laps in a totally different environment to the nicely correlated simulator in the factory.

1

u/orodruinx Sebastian Vettel Dec 09 '22

I see that I failed to read your job title in your flair and made myself look dumb in the process 😂

That’s awesome that you do that for work, fascinating stuff. I fully concede the point!

1

u/apply_induction Dec 09 '22

Trying to phrase this question properly, not sure how to get my question across in a way that might get an answer!

My expectation is that when F1 teams design e.g. suspension, the engineers working on these components are using a tool which can simulate the effects of forces on this suspension.

To what extent is this information used in the simulation? For example, can the model used in designing the part be directly executed by the simulation (for certain critical systems like the suspension, probably not the drinks bottle!)? Is it converted into lookup tables which can be then executed? Is someone responsible for designing a function which leads to similar dynamics which can then be used?

Essentially, to what extent is the simulation a side-effect of how the parts are designed vs a separate process?

43

u/alle8 Dec 08 '22

Having driven the W12 a lot and being used to it, the W13 reminds me a bit of the old 2015 McLaren in comparison. Very sketchy and harder to catch oversteer moments i find. I get very surprised when i see people saying it’s the same as the W12 or better.

13

u/TheYear3022 Formula 1 Dec 08 '22

It's a worse car in every way. Even Mercedes hate it. Can't believe it' actually in the game and being advertised tbh, but I guess that's branding and at least a car in the new regs.

37

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

The 3rd best F1 car may be marginally worse than the best F1 car, but it's still an incredible car.

Even Mercedes hate it

Because they're used to dominating.

at least a car in the new regs.

This is by far the most important thing about this release.

-3

u/big_cock_lach McLaren Dec 09 '22

I mean the model in iRacing is better, the actual car is much worse. The W12 just feels unrealistic and arcadey, people here might argue “it’s just that good”, but the model in iRacing is way too good and isn’t realistic at all.

The W13 is a much worse car, but they modelled it a lot better in iRacing. People forget that the W12 wasn’t particularly driveable at the start of 2021 which is when the model is based. Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised by how good the W13 was in iRacing, partially because the W12 was terrible, partially because iRacing is terrible as well.

3

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Dec 09 '22

People forget that the W12 wasn’t particularly driveable at the start of 2021 which is when the model is based.

Wasn’t particularly driveable? My guy it was by far the fastest car at Portugal and Spain and equal best at Bahrain, as well as being the best at France (though iirc that was after the first upgrade package).

4

u/vxscx Dec 09 '22

What does that have to do with driveability

2

u/big_cock_lach McLaren Dec 09 '22

It might’ve been the best car, and across the whole season it was. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean it was an easy car to drive. It usually does, and at the end of the season it was, but at the start it wasn’t.

1

u/CalliexKills Honda Dec 09 '22

you’re terrible, big_cock_lach.

181

u/AMRacer89 Red Bull Dec 08 '22

Guess Merc finally gave them permission to put out promo content.

I've done a little testing, and one race so far, and I'm honestly liking it a lot more than the W12. Not because I won my first race with it or anything.... But seriously, the W12 was "too good," if that makes sense. The W13 is more challenging, at least with the iRacing default setups, which has upped the fun factor for me.

104

u/AdventurousDress576 Ferrari Dec 08 '22

Last year's F1s were a lot more sophisticated than this year's ones. Years of stable regs and complicated suspension setups made them almost perfect.

27

u/ClosetEthanolic McLaren Dec 08 '22

These 2022 cars are incredibly raw and visceral in comparison to the previous years cars which were the culmination of many years of fine tuning. So I understand what you're saying.

8

u/AMRacer89 Red Bull Dec 08 '22

Yeah. I also enjoyed the McLaren MP4-30 on iRacing, after they overhauled it in 2020, anyway. GP2 engine, yes, but the less downforce and smaller physical stature made it pretty challenging to drive as well.

I never really got comfortable in the W12 for some reason though. I don't know if it just had too much grip and I never could figure out how to use it effectively, or what. The W13 seems to be back within my talent range, lol.

5

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Dec 09 '22

Yeah the W12 made me understand what Chanoch Nissany said when he tested an F1 car. Takes at least half a lap to even begin to get used to how well it sticks, and that’s at a circuit I know well.

24

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

I ran a few laps with it. It's a ton of fun, I am just not very good with it. I'm not sure if that's a lack of talent or a lack of practice, but probably both.

I can't compare it to the W12, I bought it, but I never drove it. I am still relatively new to iRacing so there's lots of cars and series I haven't experienced like I want to yet.

Frankly I bought the W13 to have a bit of fun with and put it back on the shelf. I need way more F3 and F4 seat time before I'll be confident in F1.

49

u/Crafty_Substance_954 Formula 1 Dec 08 '22

(adds to cart alongside BMW LMDH)

2

u/Roland-Flagg Ted Kravitz Dec 08 '22

How much are these items? I have no idea how much iracing costs, just that it is a lot haha.

23

u/Crafty_Substance_954 Formula 1 Dec 08 '22

iRacing is typically known to be expensive because it requires you to buy both a monthly membership ($10/month), and all the tracks and cars you want.

Tracks are $10 each, cars are $15....or its the other way around, can't remember at the moment.

There are a lot of free cars and series you can participate in with just the monthly fee though. Eventually after you play for a while, you pick a series and you'll pick up a good amount of tracks. I have mostly all of them (the tracks) and I've been on the service since 2020.

The license system and safety rating stuff is the best skill-matching in all of sim racing, and its a great service all around.

19

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

iRacing is definitely expensive, but it's by far the best option for quality multiplayer simracing.

Plus, after spending ~$5k on the hardware for my sim rig, I'm not gonna cheap out on the software.

6

u/crazyman10123 Dec 08 '22

You also get discounts at different ownership thresholds. Since I own 40 cars/tracks, I pay $12/car now.

The safety rating system feels like shit at low iRating but the iRating system is fantastic. You sign up for the same races as everyone else, and then it splits everyone into subsessions of similar iRatings.

At higher iRatings you're with better drivers and less likely to lose SR from a wreck entirely out of your control.

6

u/Crafty_Substance_954 Formula 1 Dec 08 '22

At higher iRatings you're with better drivers and less likely to lose SR from a wreck entirely out of your control.

It can be a little wild in the top splits!

1

u/crazyman10123 Dec 08 '22

I'd imagine with everyone closer to the limit it's a lot more fun though.

I made the mistake of doing pit starts to get my SR up early so I've been working on getting my iRating back up lately and it's been hell when I'm on a really good race and then someone does something really stupid that takes me out. I'd much prefer being taken out of a race because we're all just racing hard and right on the limits.

6

u/Crafty_Substance_954 Formula 1 Dec 08 '22

my general experience has been that fun and irating do not scale with each other.

2

u/Roland-Flagg Ted Kravitz Dec 08 '22

Thank you for such a great answer

-1

u/big_cock_lach McLaren Dec 09 '22

Can’t remember monthly, but you can usually pick it up for USD199 for 2 years. Cars are USD12, and tracks are USD15.

However there’s 2 problems with it. First, you end up wanting to buy a lot more cars and tracks and spend hundreds of dollars on them. Second, it’s a pretty shit sim if we’re being honest, however, it’s the only one with actually good online support so it holds a monopoly on online racing (hence why the subscription is so expensive).

In conclusion, while it’s not cheap for a game, it’s about the same as other subscriptions such as Netflix etc. If you can’t have both, it’s easy to just choose 1 in my opinion. Although, it becomes problematic in that you have to pay a decent amount for the extra cars/tracks. It’s also the only place to go for online racing, which sucks in some ways, if any other sim could generate as good of an online community as iRacing, it’d be dead overnight.

2

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Dec 09 '22

it’s a pretty shit sim if we’re being honest

Compared to what? I haven’t felt much in Assetto Corsa, ACC, rFactor 2, Dirt Rally, Automobilista, LFS, etc that I’d immediately say “wow that’s significantly superior to iRacing” to.

3

u/Lockne710 Dec 09 '22

Yeah, he's not "being honest" in any objective way, it's just his subjective impression.

For as many people as there are disliking iRacing as a sim, there are basically just as many who like it. I've personally known quite a few people who race in real life and significantly prefer iRacing over other sims, based on how it feels as a sim. I personally don't think any sim out there is perfect, but prefer the way iRacing feels too. I can drive in iRacing one day, on the real track the next day or vice versa, without it feeling "weird" - which is something that never applied to me with AC for example, it always felt "off" in some way.

1

u/big_cock_lach McLaren Dec 09 '22

Feel vs accuracy are different. The tyre models in iRacing are well known to objectively not be accurate at all. However, subjectively iRacing feels better then most sims due to how it handles FFB. It depends on each person, do you want it to feel more realistic, or do you want it to be more accurate. Both is ideal, but I’d be more willing to trade feel for accuracy, no problems being the other way around though.

Although feel is more subjective, I’d argue iRacing does actually feel the best. AC I think is more accurate, although depending on the track and car it can feel a lot worse in my opinion. The dames true for iRacing with feel, but I think the worst/best feeling car and track on iRacing feels better then the worst/best in AC. rF2 is easily the most accurate, but it’s shit at pretty much everything else.

I completely agree though, all the main sims are good in some places and shit in others. I just don’t like the fact that iRacing is exploiting what it’s good at (albeit it’s selling point is arguably the most important one).

2

u/Lockne710 Dec 09 '22

That is an interesting, albeit surprising response - most comments I've seen pretty much say the opposite.

iRacing is known for trying to get the math accurate when it comes to the tire model, even if this results in non-accurate behavior in the sim. And also an unwillingness to "fudge" things to be better, most problems persist until they find an improved way to model their tires. Their whole approach to the tire model is accuracy over feeling, and this is also one of the main points people often criticize. "Why should I care if the math is right, if it results in wrong behavior/a worse feeling?" is something a lot of people have said in regards to iR.

I guess we have to split "accuracy" into accurate models, and accurate results. iRacing does focus on the former more than nearly any other sim, but is more than willing to sacrifice the later until they feel like they got it "right". It's also sacrificing things at times until they feel confident their model is ready to include it (took ages until different tire mixtures to choose from became a thing, and flatspotting is another victim of that).

It's interesting you mention FFB, as this is another thing people very, very often criticize about iRacing (while I personally prefer it over most sims, it just feels very natural). And if you like the FFB in iR, that's actually indirectly praising their physics, as iR basically just gives you steering rack forces without added effects. It's fairly realistic, albeit limited by their physics model and our hardware, but doesn't make up for the lack of g-forces (though trying to make up for that with added effects quickly feels really "off" to me).

rF2 is pretty dang good too and feels the most natural to me next to iR, though its accuracy absolutely has its limit. Rain for example feels absolutely unrealistic, most likely due to the complete lack of hydroplaning, and cars feel really inconsistent in my experience (though disclaimer, it's been a while since I drove rF2). The best cars felt amazing, while the worst cars felt really unrealistic.

1

u/big_cock_lach McLaren Dec 10 '22

FFB is something I don’t think anyone will agree on. It’s something that’s purely subjective, and what I’ve found is that people always learn to prefer the FFB on whichever sim they use the most. Which makes sense since that’s what they’re used to.

As for accuracy, iRacing is notorious for having a terrible tire model. I’m curious about the result vs theory side though, haven’t thought of that. But, I think you’re talking about the bias-variance tradeoff in modelling. So to me, it just sounds like they’ve got bad models that are overfit. It might “be” incredibly accurate for the scenarios they’ve given it, so they’ll claim there models are mathematically more accurate, but in reality, take it out of those specific scenarios and it’ll be incredibly inaccurate. What the bias-variance tradeoff is, is essentially deliberately making it less accurate on the data you have, in order to make it more accurate on the data you don’t have.

To me, there’s no different between mathematically accurate and feeling more accurate, there’s just different models. They might try to remove certain assumptions to make a “more accurate” model, but in reality they could have a better model by including those assumptions. The most important thing is, that the outputs from the model are as accurate as possible. The ones from iRacing aren’t that good, as far as sim racing goes (that still being a high bar mind you). To me, it just sounds like them trying to justify shit models.

Also, no one I know has said iRacing is better at physics. rFactor2 is well known to have the best physics. In fact, rFactor Pro is what all the racing teams use, and rF2’s physics are based on that.

The simple thing is, no real racing driver has ever said iRacing feels realistic. They always complain about it. I don’t know much about IndyCar or NASCAR, but I’ve seen a few of their drivers (I think one was an IndyCar champion) talk about it being unrealistic and rF2 being more realistic, albeit it has many flaws elsewhere, namely being a poor game. Norris said the same thing here too, and I’ve seen a few GT3 and ELMS say similar things too, and also mentioning ACC being more accurate (which shares physics with AC). However, they all come to the same conclusion (which I agree with), that it simply has the best online and that’s not something any other sim can compete with. Then everyone has their own opinions on what feels best and what has the best FFB, but they’re purely subjective so I don’t think it’s worthwhile getting into an argument about that. We’ll have our own opinions and can share them, but respect that it’s different for everyone.

0

u/big_cock_lach McLaren Dec 09 '22

I’ll add a disclaimer here, I don’t know what LFS is (at least not the acronym) and I haven’t had a chance to play AMS2 yet, so this is more in reference to the others. I’ll also add, iRacing is a sim and drives better then most other racing games, but compared to other sims it’s not the most realistic.

As for what’s better, rF2 is well known to be the most realistic sim, albeit the tradeoff being that it’s not great in all other aspects other then graphics, with AC having similar strengths and weakness relative to iRacing (although they’re very different to each other). ACC is also a better sim but has limited scope being just the SRO championships.

In particular, iR’s tyre model and possibly material model (ie different types of road materials) are just not realistic. Although, the material one could simply be a case of the tyres. Also, these are pretty much things the whole iRacing community agrees need to be fixed, and all actual drivers so it’s not anything controversial except to those who deny any negative criticism of iRacing.

It does have a good feel to it though which is deceptive, and that paired with being more difficult can cause people to think, “hey it must be more realistic because it feels better and is harder.” But that’s just wrong. In saying that, the question is accuracy vs feel. I personally want a sim to be as accurate as possible, but some may want it to feel as realistic as possible. In which case, if you want a sim to feel realistic, iRacing is arguably the best. Although that aspect is a bit more subjective.

Also, I might’ve been a bit hyperbolic which is unfair, but it just annoys me that they get away with the prices because they’re arguably the worst sim at everything bar online. Which sadly, is also the best part of sim racing and they absolutely nailed it while everyone else screwed it up.

0

u/daniec1610 Sergio Pérez Dec 08 '22

Isn’t the beamer free?

19

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22

No it's not. The new Toyota is free though

Edit: that BMW is a ton of fun though. Can't wait for IMSA this season)

8

u/ralf3001 Dec 08 '22

imagine running this car in sebring

22

u/knbang Dec 08 '22

Fantastic, another car I'm not good enough to drive.

10

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

They also released the GR86 this update which is apparently a ton of fun, and also pretty easy to drive.

6

u/knbang Dec 08 '22

I haven't checked yet but I'm hoping it's H-pattern. I'm going to be disappointed though. I just know I am.

9

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

It's sequential. Sorry :(

9

u/knbang Dec 08 '22

All these years wasted on fancy footwork.

3

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Dec 09 '22

The MX-5 update killed me. Before it, I was making a point to drop into the C-class Advanced Mazda races even when I’d moved up to B-class just for the thrill of proper heel and toe (was fun being way better on the brakes than most people at my iRating). Now I just can’t be bothered.

4

u/knbang Dec 09 '22

I wish there was a popular class that used a H pattern, but it seems like it's a dead skill.

3

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Dec 09 '22

Yep. What living series use H pattern? The two Lotuses? The classic GT cars? The Nationwide, Truck, and classic stock cars? I mean even the Skippy is a sequential even though it doesn’t use paddles.

7

u/GoodGuySeba Sebastian Vettel Dec 08 '22

Lewis give it a try

6

u/eirexe Dec 08 '22

I always wished there was an option to use iracing with all cars unlocked in offline mode only, since that's all I do myself. So many great cars not available anywhere else. (I know about it being free during maintenance)

5

u/robot-brain Dec 09 '22

Pretty sure they're so excited, they're hopping up and down... Oh wait.

11

u/IdiosyncraticBond Max Verstappen Dec 08 '22

"Hop" lmao

6

u/_hhhhh_____-_____ Formula 1 Dec 08 '22

Bounce into the drivers seat. Then bounce in the drivers seat.

3

u/TheHipHouse Red Bull Dec 09 '22

They should come out with some type of hydraulic to attack to the seat on your sim to emulate the porpoising.

1

u/Iamagenios Kamui Kobayashi Dec 09 '22

Caaasnnnbc co onnddffi4rrm itrs dvettrry aaggeressive

4

u/Moebius17 Niki Lauda Dec 08 '22

Why would I put myself through that

9

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

I thought it was fun

3

u/Moebius17 Niki Lauda Dec 08 '22

I was joking haha, im sure it’s more than fun but also it’s fun to joke about the w13 being bad

-10

u/DaBi5cu1t Dec 08 '22

Been doing this on Assetto Corsa all year already.

21

u/rydude88 Max Verstappen Dec 08 '22

This one is built using data from Mercedes themselves instead of a mod guessing what it is like.

-8

u/DaBi5cu1t Dec 08 '22

To us mere mortals it probably doesn't matter. Closest I'm ever going to get to race an F1 car that's for sure.

10

u/rydude88 Max Verstappen Dec 08 '22

Closest I'm ever going to get to race an F1 car that's for sure.

Exactly, thats why a more accurate version isnt a bad thing even if you have to wait for it.

26

u/CalliexKills Honda Dec 08 '22

One of these cars was produced with close ties to Mercedes.

And the other one is some Assetto Corsa mods.

-14

u/DaBi5cu1t Dec 08 '22

Of course. I wonder which comes closest? AC is often credited with having decent physics and Race SIM Studio produce some of if not the best modded cars.

17

u/CalliexKills Honda Dec 08 '22

3D Meshes mean nothing when it comes to accuracy lmao, and the sim cannot do all the work for you. It's unquestionably the iRacing W13 that is closest, Mercedes helped build it.

1

u/DaBi5cu1t Dec 08 '22

No doubt. Is good to see F1 teams teaching out. It's enough to make me want to give iRacing a try

3

u/knbang Dec 08 '22

AC doesn't come close to iRacing and never has.

5

u/Cal3001 Dec 08 '22

AC’s physics are pretty sloppy in quite a few aspects. It was probably good in 2014 compared to others, but there are a few deal breakers with it that I don’t bother messing with it. Not quite sure why everyone hold it to a regard as being the best.

3

u/Unoriginal_Name_16 Nyck de Vries Dec 09 '22

The modding scene is basically why it’s as big as it is.

2

u/DaBi5cu1t Dec 08 '22

I don't think it's the best, ACC is but it only does one thing really well. Ac is just that decent.

-8

u/irr1449 Dec 08 '22

As someone who loves F1, only races open-wheelers, and bought the first Mercedes car the day it came out, I have no interest in this. I couldn't be the target audience for this car any more than I already am.

The only people who are going to buy this are those that are committed to the F1 series, which right now is 2 splits at the most popular times. A percentage of those racers are not going to want to participate in a series that requires buying a new car every year. I don't see any way this car is successful and worth a purchase for anyone but the already die-hard F1 series racers.

13

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

I couldn't be the target audience for this car any more than I already am.

The only people who are going to buy this are those that are committed to the F1 series,

These two sentences seems to contradict each other

which right now is 2 splits at the most popular times.

It's not F4 or F3 participation, but that's still pretty healthy.

A percentage of those racers are not going to want to participate in a series that requires buying a new car every year.

There's no indication that we'll be getting the W14 and W15 etc. The W12 and W13 were announced at the same time. Folks that bought the W12 knew it was going to be replaced soon. We got those 2 back to back because they are different regulation sets. By comparison the W14 is going to be very similar to the W13.

Also, if I'm wrong, 10 bucks a year should not be an impediment to someone on iRacing, who is already paying the monthly subscription which is like $75 a year even with discounts, plus $13 a track.

"A percentage" may be technically accurate but I would expect it to be less than 10%

I don't see any way this car is successful and worth a purchase for anyone but the already die-hard F1 series racers.

There is a decently large number of those folks. This car is also one that plenty of people will buy just to hotlap with every now and then, and never race. I've seen tons of people on /r/iRacing say they did that for the W12, and I'm sure plenty of folks will do the same for the W13.

9

u/rydude88 Max Verstappen Dec 08 '22

This car is also one that plenty of people will buy just to hotlap with every now and then, and never race.

Im in this boat. I much prefer to race slower single seater cars as the racing is usually better but its fun to take out the F1 car when you want to do some crazy lap times around a track

7

u/AMRacer89 Red Bull Dec 08 '22

We're not getting a new car every year. The deal was to bring the W12 (old ruleset) and the W13 (new ruleset) to the sim. Unless the deal changes, iRacing likely won't get another new F1 car until after the 2026 regs come in (so end of 2026/beginning of 2027, at the earliest).

3

u/mtarascio Daniel Ricciardo Dec 08 '22

How much is it?

10

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22

iRacing is expensive as hell tbh. I love it but I will freely admit that.

Cars are 12 bucks each

Tracks are 15 bucks each.

Plus you have to pay a monthly subscription.

It's more complicated than that, but that's the short version.

This person has probably already spent hundreds on iRacing (I know I have). I don't really understand why they're balking so hard at an additional 12 bucks for the W13 as someone who "loves F1"

5

u/Seb_Ben11 McLaren Dec 08 '22

Why aren’t you interested? Just curious

7

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

I think they're saying it's because the official series are dead and/or will be soon dead.

I don't agree with them on that. The F1 series are low population compared to F3 and F4, but they're very much alive.

5

u/AMRacer89 Red Bull Dec 08 '22

Participation should jump a bit as well once the Grand Prix Tour comes back next year.

As one of those "die-hard F1 series racers," the daily races are fine, but I really enjoyed the Tour races.

-8

u/CoRo_yy Dec 08 '22

Also: iRacers can now pay $15 for the W13 after they spent $15 for the W12 last year, that is now irrelevant and will gather dust.

14

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

iRacing announced the W13 a year ago. This wasn't a secret.

If you bought the W12, you knew what you signed up for.

Also, frankly if you're concerned about wasting $12 .... Why are you on iRacing

1

u/Schmittez Pierre Gasly Dec 09 '22

I think if they make a car redundant and you bought it with in a year or some thing you get the new one free.

1

u/CaseyTappy Dec 09 '22

Virtual back pains ...

1

u/VirtuaMcPolygon Dec 09 '22

Do you always get overtaken on the straights when driving it?

1

u/TommyGames36 Sebastian Vettel Dec 10 '22

This car has mostly gone under the rug so far because of no promo content and the BMW LMDh coming out as well which is far more hyped than this. Even I can't wait to finally start driving the BMW.

-8

u/Alba-Vulpix Dec 09 '22

it would be cheaper to go to every grand prix in europe than to play iracing long enough to be allowed to buy a car and then be allowed to use said car.

8

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 09 '22

What the hell are you talking about.

-6

u/Alba-Vulpix Dec 09 '22

iracing expensive, the end.

7

u/BSDShoes Gilles Villeneuve Dec 09 '22

I have spent a total of $1750 to date on iRacing since 2015, but some of that was gifting to others. Now it's a lot cheaper to play, just pay the sub and a car once in a while.

-2

u/Amlax74 Dec 08 '22

My God, who would want to?

10

u/HallwayHomicide Dec 08 '22

🙋‍♂️

-16

u/Mrleicester22 Dec 08 '22

No thanks

6

u/Auntypasto Jim Clark Dec 08 '22

Understood; have a great day, Sir Lewis…

1

u/Mrleicester22 Dec 19 '22

I'm a big fan of both Mercedes and Sir Lewis Hamilton, just not that particular car

-4

u/theessentialnexus Daniel Ricciardo Dec 08 '22

Lol Mercedes trying to dilute the disappointment over thousands of people

-2

u/[deleted] Dec 09 '22

[deleted]

6

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Dec 09 '22

Because Mercedes is willing to work with iRacing. The difference between the Ferrari and Red Bull and even the early-season Mercedes is a couple tenths of a second per lap anyway.

3

u/CalliexKills Honda Dec 09 '22

This deal was orchestrated during lockdown, first with the W12 to be introduced (which it was) with the W13 to come this year (which it did).

You know, when Mercedes actually won races.