r/formula1 Feb 22 '23

[motorsport.com] The FIA has banked $26.7 million in licence fees from the teams and drivers for 2023 Misc

Post image
1.3k Upvotes

1.7k

u/LastOfLateBrakers 🍑 Valtteri ButtAss Feb 22 '23

I'm annoyed by both commas and periods being used to separate every thousand. Use either. This reads like Red Bull paid about $7,869

232

u/ezekieru Fernando Alonso Feb 22 '23

I honestly cannot fathom who the fuck would do this. I mean, yeah, the designer of this image, but holy shit.

16

u/Jeroz_ Pirelli Wet Feb 23 '23

PTSD: The struggle at every new MS excel installation.

238

u/victoroos Feb 22 '23

Insane.. Yes

83

u/BasicBelch Feb 22 '23

seriously. what idiotic notation.

32

u/k2_jackal Brawn Feb 22 '23

motorsport has done that before.. drives me nuts...

9

u/HortenWho229 Formula 1 Feb 22 '23

we gotta find this motorsport guy and lock him up

109

u/TWVer Pirelli Medium Feb 22 '23

Us Europeans would round that off to $ 7,87

69

u/conman14 Eddie Irvine Feb 22 '23

Proper /r/dataisugly material

31

u/AntOk463 Feb 22 '23

The last 3 teams are all below 1 million, and it uses the comma first and period to separate them, but that's how it's supposed to be done. So weird why they chose this format and decided to include cents at all if it's only 3 teams and it's 0

8

u/Ellassen Feb 22 '23

Yeah, this is entirely insane and I hate it so much. It makes my head hurt

6

u/PM_ME_SAD_STUFF_PLZ Pirelli Wet Feb 22 '23

Average motorsport.com graphic

2

u/ImReverse_Giraffe Feb 22 '23

And Williams paid 707k

2

u/Cien-Aftersun-Gel Feb 23 '23

I was so confused on what your issue was, then realized it was meant to be 7.8 million not thousand… point proven

-4

u/Eragaurd Feb 22 '23 edited Feb 22 '23

Shouldn't be anything separating the thousands, at least in mathematical notation, although a space could work.

Edit:

I'm not betting anything on that wikipedia is correct, but this is what is written in the Decimal separator article:

The use of spaces as separators, not dots or commas (for example: 20 000 and 1 000 000 for "twenty thousand" and "one million"), has been official policy of the International Bureau of Weights and Measures since 1948 (and reaffirmed in 2003) stating

"neither dots nor commas are ever inserted in the spaces between groups",[25]

as well as by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC),[29][30] the American Medical Association's widely followed AMA Manual of Style, and the Metrication Board, among others."

As well as:

"numbers may be divided in groups of three in order to facilitate reading; neither dots nor commas are ever inserted in the spaces between groups"[25]

(1 000 000 000 for example).[25] This use has therefore been recommended by technical organizations, such as the United States' National Institute of Standards and Technology.[26]

13

u/PeregrineDrake Jean Girard Feb 22 '23

Using commas to separate thousands is correct.

edit: or periods depending on the language I guess

24

u/Aerian_ Christian Horner Feb 22 '23

Only for America, in Europe it's the other way around. Points to seperate thousands and a comma to denote the cents.

15

u/Jaraxo Juan Pablo Montoya Feb 22 '23

Except the UK.

23

u/twociffer Feb 22 '23

And Switzerland - they use 1'000'000.00 just to mess with everyone else.

13

u/Odd_Description1 Bernd Mayländer Feb 22 '23

For some reason I find that easier to read. Maybe the Swiss are on to something here.

8

u/YellowFogLights Bernd Mayländer Feb 22 '23

I’ve never seen that method before and I already like it more than all the others.

2

u/Odd_Description1 Bernd Mayländer Feb 23 '23

We both like that type of numbering and the great Bernd Mayländer. I think we can be friends.

4

u/Eragaurd Feb 22 '23

I'm not betting anything on that wikipedia is correct, but this is what is written in the Decimal separator article:

The use of spaces as separators, not dots or commas (for example: 20 000 and 1 000 000 for "twenty thousand" and "one million"), has been official policy of the International Bureau of Weights and Measures since 1948 (and reaffirmed in 2003) stating
"neither dots nor commas are ever inserted in the spaces between groups",[25]
as well as by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC),[29][30] the American Medical Association's widely followed AMA Manual of Style, and the Metrication Board, among others."

As well as:

"numbers may be divided in groups of three in order to facilitate reading; neither dots nor commas are ever inserted in the spaces between groups"[25]

(1 000 000 000 for example).[25] This use has therefore been recommended by technical organizations, such as the United States' National Institute of Standards and Technology.[26]

13

u/PeregrineDrake Jean Girard Feb 22 '23 edited Feb 22 '23

You're overthinking this. From the same article:

Three ways to group the number ten thousand with digit group separators.

1) Space, the internationally recommended thousands separator.

2) Period (or full stop), the thousands separator used in many non-English speaking countries.

3) Comma, the thousands separator used in most English-speaking countries.

edit: quoted the wrong bit of text

2

u/Eragaurd Feb 22 '23

Yes, as decimal separators, not for digit grouping.

sure, there's also this:

"Three ways to group the number ten thousand with digit group separators.

  1. Space, the internationally recommended thousands separator.
  2. Period (or full stop), the thousands separator used in many non-English speaking countries.
  3. Comma, the thousands separator used in most English-speaking countries."

But it's not recommended when used in more scientific context, as written in my comment above.

4

u/PeregrineDrake Jean Girard Feb 22 '23

You're right, I quoted the wrong bit. Fixed it.

2

u/Eragaurd Feb 22 '23

Yeah, I think it's a language vs. science question tbh. Comma or period for language, space for science, as supported by the article.

0

u/GoSh4rks Feb 22 '23

Use commas between groups of three digits in most figures of 1,000 or more. https://apastyle.apa.org/instructional-aids/numbers-statistics-guide.pdf

0

u/XsStreamMonsterX McLaren Feb 22 '23

For AP, the standard is to add a comma to denote groups of three digits outside of decimal places.

1

u/fmfbrestel Feb 22 '23

This isn't some mathematical proof or journal article, it is a graphic for use in a sporting article. It is entirely acceptable to use periods or commas to separate orders of magnitude for non-technical usage. Both of your sources are specific directions for academic and technical publications.

-1

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '23

[deleted]

2

u/ManualPathosChecks Haas Feb 22 '23

Haas, AT and Williams did not pay three quarters of a billion each. The two zeroes at the end signify cents in those three cases. So no, there are no zeroes missing.

1

u/bag_o_fetuses Feb 23 '23

and 0.008 cents

1

u/matzab Michael Schumacher Feb 23 '23

Their source could have been a table that listed the numbers in 1000s of $ which they copied without adding that part.

1

u/TravellingMackem Feb 24 '23

Or conversely if we’re being consistent, Williams paid £70.7m

742

u/Explorer_Z Formula 1 Feb 22 '23

They should learn to write the numbers first

-111

u/Fluenzal-Heneark Feb 22 '23

Good that I'm not the only one that doesn't like how commas and periods both used. The european way, I guess

130

u/UwU-Bismarck-UwU Sebastian Vettel Feb 22 '23

It's not the European way. For separating thousands it is common to use a period '.' And for decimals a comma ',' this is most common, but both are interchangeable. They are however not both used to seperate thousands at the same time. If you use a period then you use a period for the whole number, now it reads like Red Bull only spend 7 thousand instead of million.

42

u/jimbobjames Brawn Feb 22 '23

In the UK we would do -

$7,869,000.00

Swapping it would throw me for a loop initially.

5

u/Yung_Corneliois McLaren Feb 22 '23

American way as well

-11

u/I-am-that-Someone Feb 22 '23

£iar

7

u/jimbobjames Brawn Feb 22 '23

Well I mean the image has dollar values...

2

u/Frozen_mamba Feb 24 '23

I don’t understand, who are you calling a liar because literally 100% of the British population use it as jimbobjames has shown you

10

u/Explorer_Z Formula 1 Feb 22 '23

Exactly. After reading the numbers I can't get that bug out of my head. Annoying!

6

u/Explorer_Z Formula 1 Feb 22 '23

Yeah, it's pretty difficult to understand the amount. Mathematically they are wrong, don't know what system they used.

5

u/javelinnl Max Verstappen Feb 22 '23

Those last three amounts have a .00 at the end while the others don't, so I wonder is this is an overcorrection caused by a script trying to convert European numbers to an English language style format.

2

u/DonkeeJote Red Bull Feb 22 '23

ChatGPT probably involved.

163

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '23

why does redbull pay so much more?

212

u/djwillis1121 Williams Feb 22 '23

It's based on the number of points you scored in the last season

137

u/forgottenazimuth Aston Martin Feb 22 '23

Such a weird system. You did the best so instead of a reward you get punished

120

u/FergusKahn McLaren Feb 22 '23

The reward would be the prize money they get from winning. Which would be drastically higher then the cost of the entry fee for the next season.

I'm no expert but I can easily assume the difference in entry fees is to help keep balance between the "rich" teams and "poor" teams. The teams that win more typically have more money to spend for the next season. Think of the difference in sponsorship deals Red Bull can get compared to Williams. The teams at the bottom of the pack have much less to spend on research and development for the next season. Just because there is a budget cost cap does not mean every team has the money to reach it.

1

u/AlinesReinhard Charles Leclerc Feb 23 '23

But what if Williams somehow get a WDC this year?

16

u/Eiim #WeSayNoToMazepin Feb 23 '23

Then I'm pretty sure they'll make more than $7M off it

83

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '23

[deleted]

18

u/forgottenazimuth Aston Martin Feb 22 '23

So they pay you more and charge you more

Like taxes

14

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '23

[deleted]

2

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Feb 23 '23

Talking as if the FIA doesn’t operate many club, local, regional, and national series at a loss, subsidized in large part by F1.

0

u/forgottenazimuth Aston Martin Feb 23 '23

Google runs YouTube at a loss, doesn’t mean that they don’t know what they’re doing to make money.

-2

u/forgottenazimuth Aston Martin Feb 22 '23

They’re really taking the “governing” body seriously

6

u/XsStreamMonsterX McLaren Feb 22 '23

No. It's there to help address the positive feedback loop that winning (or just placing higher) creates.

8

u/AggrOHMYGOD Feb 22 '23

Redbull gets the most prize money too, though. And of course the most marketing money from outside sources due to the publicity and spotlight on their sponsors

Getting charged 2% to do manage the sport ain’t bad.

Not to mention, if they switched it... that’s just another $5-10m out of a backmarkers budget. Would you rather see an even slower haas or Williams?

-15

u/mykod Ferrari Feb 22 '23

Also known as communism

2

u/AnimalNo5205 Feb 22 '23

Specifically I think there’s a fixed fee for each place in the championship, and then they add on to the fee for every point over the next finisher. So Red Bull stomping the field last year results in this massive entry feee

2

u/MemestNotTeen Lando Norris Feb 22 '23

Big brain play. If you are doing shit try get negative points at the end of the year and the FIA owe you money.

250

u/3tenthsfaster Michael Schumacher Feb 22 '23

This plus the $7 million from Red Bull for their catering overspend means that the FIA will be dining well for the foreseeable future.

49

u/Ace3000 Williams Feb 22 '23

They just paid for more catering, except it's just for the FIA, not them.

17

u/JJJBLKRose Daniel Ricciardo Feb 22 '23

“Huh, why does Red Bull always get summoned to the FIA dining hall? Seems like they are there every afternoon”

22

u/Jorrie90 Pirelli Wet Feb 22 '23

That is why they are going to Las Vegas

3

u/XsStreamMonsterX McLaren Feb 22 '23

It's the FOM that's going to make money from Vegas (and the real estate speculation around its new facilities), not the FIA.

3

u/jnf005 Haas Feb 23 '23

I think he means FIA is gonna have some good time spending the fine/license fee in vegas.

1

u/Jorrie90 Pirelli Wet Feb 23 '23

Exactly.

2

u/XtremePhotoDesign Feb 22 '23

Weird way to frame it. Red Bull overspent. A reduction in any line item on the budget would have kept them under the cap. Saying it’s catering that put them over is just PR.

40

u/NickMullensGayDad Feb 22 '23

Yea no shit congrats on understanding the joke

18

u/Arrrmatey4510 Feb 22 '23

internet explorer sounds

13

u/Ch4rlie_G Charlie Whiting Feb 22 '23

Weren’t they framing it as “we were on budget for everything but catering“.

Each line item is typically attached to a budget (what they plan to spend in each atea). If they indeed spent as planned everywhere but catering, then the catering indeed caused them to go over budget.

Of course we plebs may never know for sure.

And they could have cut elsewhere of course. If things were “cuttable”

-1

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '23

[deleted]

-2

u/3tenthsfaster Michael Schumacher Feb 22 '23

Relax buddy, I made a typo and said 7 instead of 2.

4

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '23

[deleted]

0

u/3tenthsfaster Michael Schumacher Feb 22 '23

Hahaha, I'm just messing with you. The $7 million is the fine that Red Bull had to pay to the FIA which is what they can use to eat well. But I guess if I have to explain the joke then it just wasn't for you or just a bad joke.

113

u/SideShow117 Feb 22 '23 Duck Dance

Has banked? This is not a profit earning exercise.

So the FIA takes 1.9% of the budget of teams. (10*140m budget cap and they take 27 million of it) to regulate, officiate and govern this sport plus organise 23 events on the calendar. 27 million is not bad.

9

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Feb 23 '23

And most of the other, smaller series they regulate, officiate, and govern are run at a loss, so the 27 million doesn’t even just go into F1 operations.

21

u/Takis12 Yamura Feb 22 '23

The price of success? 😂

66

u/Coops27 Jean Alesi Feb 22 '23

It's a non-profit, all that money goes directly back into global motorsport and mobility.

28

u/forgottenazimuth Aston Martin Feb 22 '23

Non-profit means that the FIA itself as an entity doesn’t make a profit

The humans working for it, the lobbyists, interest groups, and friends of the FIA who run the tracks make a LOT OF MONEY.

That’s like saying Joel Osteen doesn’t make money from his church because it’s a non profit.

7

u/Coops27 Jean Alesi Feb 22 '23

obbyists, interest groups, and friends of the FIA who run the tracks make a LOT OF MONEY

Not from the FIA. If you want to be cynical about the people running the global governing body of Motorsport, mobility and automotive safety getting paid well is wrong, then I'm just going to massively disagree with you.

Running an organisation of this size costs money and F1 requires the most FIA resources, It's more than reasonable for them to pay a fraction of their revenue to those that put on these events.

-2

u/forgottenazimuth Aston Martin Feb 23 '23

Found Mohammed Ben Sulayem’s alt account

0

u/Coops27 Jean Alesi Feb 23 '23

nope, he uses twitter

62

u/RM_Dune Red Bull Feb 22 '23

Goes right into the FIA employees' bellies.

8

u/123FantaochRose Feb 22 '23

This right here! Fancy dinners do not pay themselves

7

u/PrimeJHey Brawn Feb 22 '23

You guys reealize the FIA is made up of more then just rich oligarchs?

5

u/NegotiationExternal1 Estie Bestie ridin' Horsey McHorse 🐎 Feb 22 '23

It pays their wages and their expenses. Do they not deserve a living wage?

9

u/tankmode Safety Car Feb 22 '23

non-profit does not mean "good" or "charitable". FIFA is a non-profit. there's a pretty obvious grift with "non-profit" where all the executives take enormous salaries & travel reimbursements for not doing that much or just doing shady stuff.

3

u/Coops27 Jean Alesi Feb 22 '23

Sure, there can be a lot of shady non-profits, but that really isn't the case in the majority of non-profit organisations and it certainly isn't the case here.

9

u/SilverArrowW01 Esteban Ocon Feb 22 '23

I think it was at the end of 2017 that a rumour went around that Force India was pretty much dreading good results on track. Because they had already secured 4th place in the WCC, the points served essentially no purpose but to drive up the entry fee.

5

u/doatdog Feb 22 '23

Like 2012 and 2013 Lotus when their contract with Raikkonen paid a bonus per point scored

Raikkonen: Crosses the finish line in 1st place

The accountants at Enstone: “Fuck”

30

u/trollymctrollstein Murray Walker Feb 22 '23

Well the FIA does own Formula 1. They sold a lease of the commercial rights for a relative pittance in the form of a lump sum in 2000 and these continuing yearly fees.

It seems like all these posts are suggesting that the FIA is making too much money off the sport. The commercial rights are worth billions and the FIA gave them up in exchange for a couple tens of millions per year. Who got the better deal?

21

u/RobertGracie Niels Wittich Feb 22 '23

From what I recall, its based off a net entry fee and then the there is additional after that based off the amount of points you scored in the previous season, I dont remember the exact values of it

22

u/yehcheersaye Feb 22 '23 edited Feb 22 '23

Yeh basically they were always going to get 27 million, very simplified there are a certain number of points likely to be handed out in a season so they assign a cash figure to each point… the more you score the more you pay

9

u/hache-moncour Sebastian Vettel Feb 22 '23

Only thing that lowers the total is when a race isn't completed and partial or no points are handed out.

9

u/yehcheersaye Feb 22 '23

And fastest lap eligibility possibly?

2

u/hache-moncour Sebastian Vettel Feb 22 '23

Oh yes, I forgot about that. That'll only be a marginal amount compared to a half-points race, but still changes the total.

And I suppose when they start taking points away for political statements...

7

u/FredVasseur Frédéric Vasseur Feb 22 '23

Is this supposed to make me feel bad for the teams?

3

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Feb 23 '23

Probably. FOM has been pretty clearly trying to demonize the FIA in the eyes of the fans lately, using their vast media presence to do so.

6

u/Logical_Crab_4594 Guenther Steiner Feb 22 '23

It’s business not a sport, after all

2

u/Odd_Description1 Bernd Mayländer Feb 22 '23

Most sports are businesses. You think other sports organizations aren't making money hand over fist? Let me introduce you to the IOC and FIFA.

3

u/261846 Fernando Alonso Feb 22 '23

Who the fuck made this

2

u/lucidesposition Pirelli Wet Feb 23 '23

Wait, could someone tell me what are the “three fees” teams have to pay & how are these “driver fees” different from their salary? Thank you

4

u/SunGodnRacer Virgin Feb 22 '23

The thing that annoys me, is that this has been the case since atleast a decade if I'm not wrong, but it's been brought into focus now as if FIA has implemented it recently.

2

u/tantramx Max Verstappen Feb 22 '23

If Williams won the constructors they would have to withdrawal due to cost of entry lol

-7

u/gravy_train101 Formula 1 Feb 22 '23

Why the fuck doesn't every team pay the same? That's fucking bullshit.

8

u/SunGodnRacer Virgin Feb 22 '23

Driver superlicence fees are different, because they have to pay some amount of money (around 8-10k dollars iirc) per point they earn. So because RB earned the most points, they pay the most amount of money

-2

u/gravy_train101 Formula 1 Feb 22 '23

That's so fucking stupid.

5

u/shakexjake Feb 22 '23

the teams that make more money contribute more to the FIA. would you rather more cash-strapped teams have even less money to spend on their cars and drivers?

1

u/gravy_train101 Formula 1 Feb 22 '23

Id rather have every team on a level playing field. There's a spending cap. So idk why "making more money" matters.

1

u/D3athR3bel Feb 23 '23 edited Feb 23 '23

Because sponsors pay more for winning cars.

Because winners earn more from getting 1st 2nd and 3rd in the championship.

Because winners can afford the best engineers and the best hardware that let them continue winning.

F1 would be entirely dead on a completely level playing field because unlike other sports with standardized hardware or competing on the purely human factor, f1 is all about engineering and investment.

If you want a completely level playing field, you may enjoy other racing series. F1 is not the only one, and plenty of other cups have homogulated hardware.

The spending cap is but one of the efforts f1 is making to make the field more level, but ultimately if you think about it for one second, If one teams investment pays off and produces massive results, they can shift their efforts elsewhere while everyone continues to spend to catch up and said team can continue this trend year after year. In this scenario it can snowball into massive advantage.

5

u/yellow_edge Gilles Villeneuve Feb 22 '23

Because you'd end up with about three viable teams and a struggling organization overall with lower viewership and sponsorship numbers.

But it would be "fair".

1

u/gravy_train101 Formula 1 Feb 22 '23

"three viable teams"

So how is that different than what we currently have?

6

u/yellow_edge Gilles Villeneuve Feb 22 '23

I count ten.

1

u/gravy_train101 Formula 1 Feb 22 '23

Lol I count a team as viable if they have a chance to win a championship. So. 3.

2

u/rydude88 Max Verstappen Feb 23 '23

Well if you want more this is how you get it lol. You have things that help the smaller teams get to the level of the top teams. You are contradicting yourself by saying you want more championship capable teams yet you dont support initiatives for that. We will 3 teams total in F1 if we make the small teams pay as much

1

u/D3athR3bel Feb 23 '23

What he's saying is that 10 teams get to enter f1 as a sport but not neccesarily all of them have to win to be able to continue competing. He's saying your suggestion would lead to 3 teams total being able to enter f1 as a sport because those who don't win earn less and would be shafted by higher upfront costs.

0

u/Capable-Chicken-2348 Formula 1 Feb 22 '23

It's just fucked, haas and down is correct

4

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '23

[deleted]

0

u/Capable-Chicken-2348 Formula 1 Feb 23 '23

The formatting is fucked haas and down is correct, too hard to understand so downvote due to your failure to understand simple facts being mentioned.

-1

u/itakepoopooonmods Feb 22 '23

So from rich to poor. This shows the top 3 will always be winning lo and top 3 will always be on the leader board.

-1

u/rdm55 Jim Clark Feb 22 '23

The FIA has bills to pay. /s

2

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Feb 23 '23

They have many other series to organize, very few of which have drivers or teams who can come anywhere near covering the operating costs. The FIA subsidizes local, club, regional, and national series with F1.

-1

u/rdm55 Jim Clark Feb 23 '23

Really? I did not know that! /s

1

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Feb 23 '23

Your original comment seemed to be perpetuating the harmful myth of the greedy FIA who just takes money from the poor struggling F1 teams (and commercial rights holder) to make their own profit.

0

u/rdm55 Jim Clark Feb 23 '23

I guess you missed the "/s"

It was a "joke" Lighten up.

1

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Feb 23 '23

Yes, sarcastically saying “the FIA has bills to pay” certainly sounds like you’re saying they don’t have a need for that money.

1

u/EddieMcDowall Sir Lewis Hamilton Feb 22 '23

It can't be that far back when that would be more than the total annual turnover of F1!

1

u/Bossmandude123 Feb 22 '23

I was sitting here thinking everyone else was stupid and thought the . Was cents

1

u/theessentialnexus Daniel Ricciardo Feb 22 '23

Do these fees count against the cost cap?

1

u/rydude88 Max Verstappen Feb 23 '23

No, only car development does

1

u/anEmailFromSanta Honda Feb 22 '23

Is this part of the cost cap?

1

u/rydude88 Max Verstappen Feb 23 '23

No, only car development is included

1

u/MapleHamwich Jenson Button Feb 22 '23

Andretti walking around like travoltameme.gif with $200m in their hands.

1

u/Yung_Corneliois McLaren Feb 22 '23

How is an F1 team profitable?

1

u/bigdsm Fernando Alonso Feb 23 '23

Advertising money and prize money. Even Haas is profitable.

1

u/CubeWorldWisdom Feb 23 '23

I do like the fact that fee is proportional to points, so like midfield teams don't get heavily penalized when they don't earn many points but end up in 4th or 5th.

1

u/X-2357 Feb 23 '23

Russell westbrook made more from his buyout lol

1

u/dark_rabbit Feb 23 '23

Weird part is, they pay money for entry, then they get awarded money for winning?

Is the logic that FIA needs money to operate through the season, but at the end they’ve made all the sponsorship money and can then pay out the winners?

1

u/RulerofKhazadDum Feb 23 '23

Williams paying 700K while Redbull just pays 7.8K. That’s where their budget is going!

/s